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March 27, 2008 6:31 PM PDT

Spyware Horror Story: Debugging for newbies

by Jessica Dolcourt

Submitted by Chookkii; Willaston, Australia

After reading all the stories and blogs, I'm starting to think that maybe all the problems I'm having all of a sudden could be caused by the Norton Internet Suite I purchased this year. My computer is running slowly, programs are constantly "not responding," I'm getting error reports about programs that I didn't even know were running, let alone that they existed, and to make it worse, I am very basic on the computer. We did not have them when I went to school, so all I know is only what I have taught myself. When something goes wrong, I have a hard time trying to fix it and if I do manage to fix it, you can bet I don't know (or remember) what I did to fix it!

Everyone talks about having enough memory, but I've no idea what I should have. My laptop has a speed of 1,729 MHz, RAM 512 MB, total capacity is 111.78 GB, and free disk space is 80.04--all of which means nothing to me. Also, everyone talks about cache memory, but no one tells you how much you should set your cache memory to. Anyway, if my problems are with Norton, what do you do? Do you put up with it since it cost over $100.00 for a year's subscription, or cut my losses and disable it?

Editor's response

As liberating as computers are, it's terrifying when things go wrong. You're left abandoned, even mocked!, by the tools on which you've come so heavily to rely. It's like having your trusty accountant wipe a stack of forms to the floor, storm out of the office, and leave you to sort out your own taxes.

That's why this Spyware Horror Story (see all) goes back to basics. Without a good foundation, novice users will perform tasks without understanding what they're doing or why. Not that this quick response will solve all problems, but it's a start.

Memory. The two kinds of memory Chookkii mentions are RAM (random access memory) and cache memory, the latter of which can mean different things in various contexts. In layman's terms, RAM is a sizable data reservoir that makes much of your data quicker to access, faster than pulling data from the hard disk. I've heard it described with a library book analogy, and here's another--getting data from RAM is a bit like getting a cold drink from the kitchen refrigerator, instead of from the garage. Cache memory works similarly, but is a reservoir to make getting select data even quicker than getting it from RAM, like fetching that drink from the mini fridge at your feet instead of traipsing to the kitchen.

If you're not a gamer or running a ton of heavy, full-featured programs, a 512 MB RAM is usually adequate. You can add more RAM, let's say a gigabyte (GB) more, by buying it from any retail or online electronics store (compare prices here.) That will generally speed your computer's performance, and is a good choice if you plan to store large multimedia files, like music, photos, and videos.

I'm no cache memory expert, but from what I understand, the limit is tied to the CPU chip that comes with your computer. Replacing that means messing with the guts of your computer. Don't take my word for it, though. There's a lot of good information on the Web, and plenty of forums to help, including CNET's.

Problems with Norton. While antivirus apps have been known to compete with each other and spontaneously combust when you've got too many going at once, I suspect Chookkii's problems are more of a malware nature. This was the tip-off: "I'm getting error reports about programs that I didn't even know were running, let alone that they existed." Ding, ding, ding! Ah, the sweet warning bells of corruption. There are a few things I'd do in this case.

First, make sure Norton is completely updated. You can do this by opening the program interface and finding the "Updates" button. The next step is to get a second opinion whether the software in question is unwanted malware or some greater system wreckage. I suggest scanning the computer with a different third party antivirus app. There are plenty of good choices out there, but I might start with one like SUPERAntiSpyware Free Edition.

If that doesn't turn up anything, you can easily escalate the hunt by running a diagnostic scan with Trend Micro Hijack This, a free, invaluable tool, and send the log to a dedicated spyware forum for analysis. Read our help manual for more details.

My final piece of advice is also the most drastic, and should be followed only if you're at your wit's end. Back up your photos, MP3s, and important documents (you could do this with an external hard drive or with software) and reinstall Windows with your original installation disks. This is time consuming and you'll lose all your extra programs and data, taking you back to the extreme basics. Known as a "clean install," this method also usually rids the system of what ails it and is a straightforward enough concept for even extreme novices to find success. Best of luck.

Find you also have suggestions for Chookkii? Leave them in the comments below.

Jessica Dolcourt reviews the latest and greatest smartphone apps, in addition to a healthy dose of Windows software. E-mail Jessica and follow her on Twitter.
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Add a Comment (Log in or register) Showing 1 of 2 pages (42 Comments)
by 11gardir March 28, 2008 4:32 AM PDT
Or alternatively, get rid of Norton (which could be difficult), and get Avira AntiVir, Spyware Terminator and Comodo Firewall instead!
Reply to this comment
by johnch44 March 28, 2008 6:26 AM PDT
Since this is an inexperienced user, maybe just run Disc Clean up and Defragment the hard drive before moving on to an antispyware scan (Windows Defender), antivirus scan ( Norton). Formating the hard drive is rather drastic at this point.
Reply to this comment
by Doug Woodall March 28, 2008 7:19 AM PDT
Sadly, using a computer online requires no experience. Thats what BotNet and Malware marketeers count on.
Infecting a computer and using it and hopefully many others to profit without remorse is the way it works now out there.
And agreeing with 11gardir, you cant just disable Norton and install something else. It has to be removed completely, you have to dnload the uninstall program at their site to insure that whatever you decide to run will not end up a mess.
Reply to this comment
by i_am_still_wade March 28, 2008 7:37 AM PDT
Best move I ever made was get rid of Norton and get Trend Micro Internet Security. While not perfect, it is efficient (unlike McAfee) and it detects almost everything (unlike both Norton and McAfee). I also find Trend Micro's real time scanning is good too. I just go to the command prompt, type dir in the directory I want to scan, and it quite often detects spyware just that simply. In fact, I don't even use Spybot or Ad-Aware anymore. I have yet to come upon something it cannot remove.
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by dirtylow March 28, 2008 8:23 AM PDT
thanx for the info on ram & trouble shooting those error messages. I alway tell people to know what programs are running in the background. There r lots of tools for this my favorite is Sysinternals Process Explorer.http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653.aspx
Task Manager is #1 thought it works 99.99% of the time when others are hung up, & the os is not responding.
System idle should be 100% fluctuating in the 90s is also good.
For trouble with passable malwarz i suggest going to "trend micros house call" an on line scanner. http://housecall.trendmicro.com/
Usually finds & removes. U can also get your copy of hijack this while u r there.
They also have a new software out called "rubotted" you will see it there when u go to housecall. I am still testing this ware out myself.
i dont recall if in the post the person mentioned how long they have been operating on that install. i reformat every three months or so. Well not so much reformat as wipe the disk clean & restore the partion from the last clean install that was on the computer when i got it new. First thing i do with a new box is install Acronis True Image.
http://www.download.com/Acronis-True-Image-Home/3000-2242_4-10168093.html?tag=lst-1&cdlpid=10744891 Open it & backup drives. All backups r on a external that i dont use, only to backup data or restore. It takes minutes to restore. Compared to hours doing/making a clean install.
U probably dont have that luxury right now but take my word for it
Acronis True Image Home 11.0
is worth every penny. u can do more than restore. i dont want to go on about Acronis.
Clean install is daunting but worth while when done right make sure u have your disks. OS &
Drivers. Google reformat if u dont know how. its easy just time consuming.(Sometimes trouble shooting a problem is more trouble than it worth. U can spend days and still not have good result. I reformat & have about 50 installed programs in about 4-6 HRS. So i think to myself i know i will have the results i want if i reformat. trouble shooting i might just be chasing my tail.) An online scan from trend takes at least 2 HRS on my cpu. In that same amount of time you could reformat have drivers installed & be doing windows updates.
If u do reformat when the drivers r installed updates r done. BACKUP your os. No matter how u do it there r free bees out there windows has on on the os. Sorry for babbling hope i helped someone. thanx to everyone posting who has helped someone. i know it has helped me
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by rcharnoc March 28, 2008 9:44 AM PDT
I see no mention made of what Operating System is in use, but if the laptop is running Vista Basic with 512 RAM that can be a problem. Also many of the commercial anti virus applications including Norton and Trend Micro, from my experience tend to slow down systems. I would definitely look into reinstalling the OS and installing a free anti virus like Avast, and anti spyware like Spybot Search and Destroy.
Reply to this comment
by MADDY12 March 28, 2008 10:24 AM PDT
HOW ABOUT USEING 'SYSTEM RESORE' AND GO BACK BEFORE NORTONS WAS INSTALLED..I TO HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH THIS SOFTWARE..CHEERS CLIFF
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by Darthorious March 28, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
Did have a friend with simular problems. Turned out to be a trojan can't remember the name of it but it was a nasty one and re-install/wipe of the drive didn't work. Reason being there is a hidden exe file on drives including jump drives I believe he said it was called test.exe or something like that. It was actually infecting test.exe with the virus and apparently that file is not deleted/wiped when you do so to a drive.

He was able to get a program to restore the actual test.exe (or whatever it was called) on his drives and remove the virus but it took alot of time. Funny I never knew about this file.
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by Little_Timmy March 28, 2008 10:59 AM PDT
I don't want to start a flame war but I'm kinda confused why we still use Windows at all. I switched to Apple computers several year as ago and have not once since had any spyware, malware or virii.
Reply to this comment
by Anysia March 28, 2008 11:48 PM PDT
Macs aren't immune to malware of spyware, or viruses. Now that (ok, you may laugh) Microsoft has been getting tighter with security and plugging holes in security faster than every, maladroits have been targeting Mac OS. It was bound to happen sooner or later.
by chustar March 28, 2008 11:26 AM PDT
You're comfortable with Macs, that's your thing. Not everyone is ready to learn ho to use a whole new OS. Besides, if you want us all to use Macs, allow us to install it on any hardware we want and not charge us for premium computers.
Reply to this comment
by mssoot March 28, 2008 11:38 AM PDT
Simple
install update and run windows defender
update and run AV software
Go to online scanner at trend micro
uninstall all the garbage you have installed via downloads
Trash Norton anything
try almost any other securirty suite major brands ie trend micro, Mcafee etc. etc.
scan again
throw laptop in washer and repeat
Reply to this comment
by gunfighter1948 March 28, 2008 12:47 PM PDT
I did software support for a Microsoft sub contractor for 3 years. Norton Antivirus software was the only antivirus program we EVER had problem with. Many times we had to remove it from the customers hard drive to get their program installed. I won't have Norton on any of my computers. I've taliked with other support techs and they have had similar problems with non Microsoft programs, so it's not just a Microsoft program thing.

I agree with other posters here that they may very well have a malware/adware problem on the computer. But I would take Norton off and see if the problem still persist and also do a scan for malware/adware.
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by SmarterCookie March 28, 2008 12:49 PM PDT
As Mac users, we read all these horror stories, and feel that someone should at least point out to the worried reader, that it's nearly always a Windows only problem, and there is a simple solution for most users. Yes, Macs are premium machines. But the premium cost can be trivial compared to support costs, and the risk and worry that your machine has been secretly compromised, your machine zombied, that your actions are being tracked and perhaps even keystrokes are being logged, as you enter your bank website passwords. PC techs spend maybe 50% of their time on this stuff. Mac techs .001% if any at all (yes, that could change - but hasn't for a decade). And at slightly more cost, you can run Windows on the Mac at the same time for certain programs, keeping Windows off the Net, virus & spyware free, and instantly backup-able. Yes there are a few downsides, but generally you really get what you pay for in this case.
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by Anysia March 28, 2008 11:54 PM PDT
I have had a trouble-free 'relationship' with my Windows Machines for 10+ years. The only issues I was when I was forced to use IE for web browsing (due to certain sites using FrontPage or other MS proprietary sortware) until FireFox came out. I haven't had any issues ever since. Personally, someone ditching their PC for Macs due to not using simple security, is like someone throwing away their car because they refuse to use a seatbelt.

If I was going to switch OS, it wouldn't be to a Mac, it would be Linux.
by HawkeyePierce63 March 28, 2008 1:11 PM PDT
I tried the Norton Internet Suite 2003 trial version on my Windows ME machine, and it totally fouled things up. I couldn't access either of the 2 games sites I use, my MSN Messenger, Yahoo IM and AIM wouldn't run (although a generic IM that I had downloaded did work and enabled me to use both IM's). When I opened pages that had graphics or pictures, the text would open, but all i got of the pictures was that dreaded little red 'X'. I contacted Norton about this, and they said to uninstall Internet Suite, using their un-install feature, so I tried that, which is where things really got interesting...... When i powered up the PC, I couldn't even get as far as the Windows log-on screen. Nrton told me, basically that I was SOL, and that it was my problem. I ended up having to completely formatt the HDD & start again, losing quite a lot of pictures etc that I hadn't backed up before (my fault, I know), and spend the best part of a day updating Windows ME, reinstalling MS Office & my IM's & reinstalling the back-ups I had made. I'll never use Norton again, and could never recommend it to anyone. When I finally replaced my Window ME machine, the first thing I did, before even getting Windows updates, was to remove the free trial of Norton that ame with the machine, so it wouldn't surprise me if Norton was causing problems.
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by JonathanPDX March 28, 2008 1:37 PM PDT
"...I'm kinda confused why we still use Windows at all."

It has nothing to do with flaming, it's a matter of market share. The greater majority of computers out there in the wide, wide world use Windows. More software is written for Windows. More people are trained to use Windows. Having a Mac is wonderful, if you can afford it, and if you have access to an infrastructure that can repair/support it without draining your bank account.

Another aspect is that, since more people use Windows, more malware is created for it. Don't kid yourself...if Apple were the majority OS, it would be in the same position. Same goes for Linux. Right now, it's just not worth the time and effort of scumbags who create the stuff, as there aren't as many bragging rights for doing anything to a non-Windows system.

Using a computer requires the same preparation as anything else. If you plan of going out into the great big world with it, you'd better be prepared for bad things to happen...they do and they will. Just as you would get vaccinations before traveling to some exotic land, you need to protect your computer from viruses and bugs of all kinds.
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by Anysia March 28, 2008 11:56 PM PDT
Why? Because even with WINE interface, there are still some programs that will not run under Linux (like many of my graphics programs), and since most of my computer usage is graphics (images, photography, editing etc) I want to keep using the ones I have already bought, not have to get all new versions (that's if if there are versions for Linux)
by El Alquimista March 28, 2008 2:10 PM PDT
I have two comments -- one regarding Macs and one regarding Norton Security.

While Mac users do still have fewer malware attacks, it may be due more to the numbers of machines than to the OS. When PCs outnumbered Macs by about 20-to-1, hackers generaly ignored Macs; after all, would you rather .spend your time on infecting maybe 200,000 machines or 10,000. But this is starting to change as the ratio approaches 15-to-1. According to MacNewsWorld (12-11-07), "Hackers are definitely stepping up attacks against the Apple platform, and relying on a firewall for protection is not enough, said Paul Henry, vice president of tech evangelism at Secure Computing. 'I run an AV on my Macs. It is necessary in this environment."

Regarding Norton: I was a long-time user of Peter's software, starting with his "Norton Utilities" in the nid-80's. His stuff was generally good, even though not perfect. After he sold out to Symantec, but remained as the leader of the group, software sold under the Norton name was still fairly good, though there was some deterioration. After Peter retired a few years ago, and the Symantec people took over completely, it has gotten so bad that I will not use it. Gunfighter1948 and HawkeyePierce63 are right -- get rid of it. There are better security programs out there, including Kapersky, BitDefender,Trend Micro, and AVG.
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by tikoro March 28, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
In any type of systems security, and the basics of any problem solving involving something "outside the box" entering "the box", you have to look at your paths in to the box. The number one and biggest road leading in to your computer is your browser and subsequently, what sites the people using your computer visit. Knowing where you've been, can help a lot in backtracking to where the problem was picked up.

Getting apps or add-ons to enhance security for your browser is always a good idea. The FireFox team in process of developing FireFox 4 are introducing some enhancements to auto update descriptors for web hijacking on the fly (every 15 mins or so), but that's for in the future...

I dream of a world where these big business antivirus and anti-spyware people stop sitting on their duffs and relying on antiquated software base forms and become innovative in the world of pc usage today. Write some add-ons or learn to integrate your products with the software that links a pc to the roads that virii and spyware gets in on. Most AV software and spyware software only react after the malware is on the system already, that provides a time frame of susceptibility to malicious code on the machine before anti-malware applications can deal with it. Let's look at it as it comes in (sure they have real-time email scanners, not saying they're not needed), but many people use webmail a lot rather than a stand-alone mail application, so that doesn't help them unless they're saving an attachment, in which case, refer to above. Let's take a look and analyze the data that's coming through the pipe of the internet before allowing it to actually arrive..Firewalls are great for blocking stuff coming from somewhere unexpected, but it doesn't really scan anything coming in on an accepted interface.
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by jgv115 March 28, 2008 3:35 PM PDT
man using Norton with 512mb ram? Norton will probably take 300mb which basically leaves you with nothing
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by flmckinney March 28, 2008 7:00 PM PDT
Dumping your security suite is a good start. I am convinced that security suites protect your computer by keeping it so busy it doesn?t have time to get a virus. As a previous comment noted - getting rid of a security suite may not be easy. Most of them embed themselves in your system and it takes forever to eliminate them entirely.

Get yourself a registry cleaner like Registry Mechanic (not free) or Eusing Free Registry Cleaner (make sure to set the options to create a restore point before cleaning). Cleaning your registry may well help out with the speed problem.

As for virus/spy ware try Sunbelt Software?s Vipre (currently in beta, but seems to work great). Avira Antivir is a good antivirus (free or paid). Try Adaware Free for spy ware.

Firewalls - try Comodo (free) Sunbelt Personal Firewall (no, I don?t work for them but I do like there stuff).

Lastly, read everything you can about computer security. Also after you get all of these programs - use them. Take the time every week and run your scans (or set them to run every night. Keep you registry cleaned out .

Don?t want to make you paranoid but ?they? are out to get you. Don?t let them do it!
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by VitaPrimo March 28, 2008 9:06 PM PDT
Get a Mac!
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